Interesting Questions, Interesting Answers: LPMB Topical Debate V1.0

[illustrator_jen]

(This may or may not work...)

"Violent goth jailed for kicking chav to death" (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/07/31/violent-goth-jailed-for-kicking-chav-to-death-115875-20677777/)

I read this in the paper yesterday. Am I wrong in thinking that goths/emos/rock fans are "sinking" to the same level as supposedly knife-wielding chavs?

Also, if "emo" is responsible for so much teen suicide, then why hasn't music from acts like Scooter been accused of encouraging the rise in ASBO's and knife crime?

Discuss.

EDIT: Feel free to post your own "interesting" topics for discussion :)

[Flames_Go_Higher]

I wouldn't say it's getting to that point but I do think it's just another subgroup that the media can single out in order to make things sound dramatic and it probably will appear to get worse. Can't just be two teens who have a fight, that wouldn't be interesting enough, they have to categorised into subgroups so that subgroup can be singled out as being a 'problem'. Does that make sense?

Do bands such as Scooter talk about such things? I know hip hop takes a hit for stuff like that, but that's because it's talked about in their lyrics.

Nice idea btw. :)

[36_crazyfists]

i think the scooter point is really valid, i've never thought about that before.

i think emo is an easy target for the press, they see the gloomy /depressing look of bands like my chemical romance, have a quick look at their lyrics and assume thats whats forcing kids to self harm. it's bollocks. not all kids who self harm listen to emo. the same thing happen back when nu metal was in its prime. the press blamed bands for their depressing style of music for the problems of kids. i think they just love to hate the rock scene has a whole.

as for scooter not being blamed, i think the main type of music that encourages knife crime is the type of gangsta rap that promotes this type of behaviour. i think scooter and other shitty techno/dance groups are more responsible for drug use. i'm not sure the lyrics themselves promote it, but it scene on a whole does.

[36_crazyfists]

I wouldn't say it's getting to that point but I do think it's just another subgroup that the media can single out in order to make things sound dramatic and it probably will appear to get worse. Can't just be two teens who have a fight, that wouldn't be interesting enough, they have to categorised into subgroups so that subgroup can be singled out as being a 'problem'. Does that make sense?

Do bands such as Scooter talk about such things? I know hip hop takes a hit for stuff like that, but that's because it's talked about in their lyrics.

Nice idea btw. :)

but the reason they are fighting in the first place is because they are a chav or a goth. the goth wouldn't have attacked the chav if he appeared to be a normal looking kid that didn't belong to any (stupid) group.

[illustrator_jen]

The reason I mentioned Scooter is because it blows the whole argument about music influencing lifestyle out the window. People just put you in a box and say, you listen to My Chemical Romance so you cut yourself, and that person listens to dance music so they go round nicking cars. It's utterly ridiculous. The media really needs to do some proper research before shouting it's mouth off. But research doesn't sell papers, unfortunately.

[Flames_Go_Higher]

but the reason they are fighting in the first place is because they are a chav or a goth. the goth wouldn't have attacked the chav if he appeared to be a normal looking kid that didn't belong to any (stupid) group.

Ohh I see. Then yeah, she's right, it does appear to be going the same way as for chavs. But does that stem from them getting badly by chavs I wonder?

[Kazuo_Kiriyama]

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I like how the article fails to mention the chav having some part in the whole thing kicking off, which is highly likely.

[36_crazyfists]

Goth

Offshoot of punk who dress in black and like moody music

this here, is a detailed and fantastic overview of goth.

"moody music"? ahhhh yes, i understand now.

[illustrator_jen]

"Goth clothes "prompted killing"" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7291985.stm)

This is from my local news; and it makes me sick. This is what I mean about the whole generalisation/pigeonholing issue.

[Flames_Go_Higher]

The reason I mentioned Scooter is because it blows the whole argument about music influencing lifestyle out the window. People just put you in a box and say, you listen to My Chemical Romance so you cut yourself, and that person listens to dance music so they go round nicking cars. It's utterly ridiculous. The media really needs to do some proper research before shouting it's mouth off. But research doesn't sell papers, unfortunately.

Exactly, and that's your problem right there, the media. They make everything 100 times worse. Now I'm not saying knife crime isn't a problem at the moment but I'm guessing it's getting a lot more media coverage than it used to, leading to the impression thats its a lot wosre than it ever was.

[illustrator_jen]

this here, is a detailed and fantastic overview of goth.

"moody music"? ahhhh yes, i understand now.

Yes, those "descriptions" were actually printed in the paper, to give readers a clearer idea of the groups of people being written about. How insightful.

[Keyser_Soze]

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I like how the article fails to mention the chav having some part in the whole thing kicking off, which is highly likely.

This story is actually really close to my heart.

Jed WASN'T a 'chav' by any stretch of the imagination. He was actually a normal A&D student, was a decent lad.

Ash - He didn't actually provoke the 'goth' in any way, shape or form. Sewell was basically scum. No matter what they wear, scum is still scum.

[Kazuo_Kiriyama]

This story is actually really close to my heart.

Jed WASN'T a 'chav' by any stretch of the imagination. He was actually a normal A&D student, was a decent lad.

Ash - He didn't actually provoke the 'goth' in any way, shape or form. Sewell was basically scum. No matter what they wear, scum is still scum.

I didn't know that obviously, the point I was trying to make is they have a tendancy to leave things out to make you feel a certain way. Clearly it's not the case here, and you're right - scum is scum regardless of steretyping.

As I said, I certainly don't agree with it. I just don't always fully believe everything I read.

[killie32]

The guy couldn't have been too bright, refusing to go to hospital after getting repeatedly kicked in the head.

It doesn't matter where you are or what "group" you are in, there will always be people who go out looking for a fight.

[LP_Fan101]

"Emo"....okay then. Anyone hear about Hannah Bond? :mad:

[36_crazyfists]

forteen posts. we had a good run didn't we jen?

[36_crazyfists]

"Emo"....okay then. Anyone hear about Hannah Bond? :mad:

link etc plz lostprophets girl.

[LP_Fan101]

link etc plz lostprophets girl.

Lostprophets? Lmao xD

Google it.

[36_crazyfists]

are you stupid? what's the point of having a thread like this if you are going to bring something up, say nothing about it abd then when people ask for information you tell them to google it?

[Flames_Go_Higher]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-566481/Why-child-safe-sinister-cult-emo.html

Hilarious. Not the story itself, that is sad, but the writing up of it.

[LP_Fan101]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-566481/Why-child-safe-sinister-cult-emo.html

Hilarious. Not the story itself, that is sad, but the writing up of it.

Yeah, and sorting of relating to that issue, Russia think they can ban 'emo'.

[Flames_Go_Higher]

Yeah, and sorting of relating to that issue, Russia think they can ban 'emo'.

How exactly?

[LP_Fan101]

How exactly?

I have no idea. I read about it in a magazine and that they plan to make it a law by the end of the year. Maybe they're gonna kick everyone out of Russia who dresses as 'emo'.

http://www.nme.com/news/my-chemical-romance/38392

[Kimberlys]

I have no idea. I read about it in a magazine and that they plan to make it a law by the end of the year. Maybe they're gonna kick everyone out of Russia who dresses as 'emo'.

http://www.nme.com/news/my-chemical-romance/38392

I remember I read something about it a while ago.
It stood that they will forbid students wear 'emo-makeup' or anything related to emo at school.
If so, they will get suspended.

[Flames_Go_Higher]

Won't happen. Not quite sure how law works in Russia but I can't imagine it'll happen to the point they're making out in the article.

[LP_Fan101]

I don't think it will happen either. It's pathetic and I'm sure they have more important issues to be dealing with.

[Flames_Go_Higher]

You'd think, wouldn't you?

[Kimberlys]

I don't think it will happen either. It's pathetic and I'm sure they have more important issues to be dealing with.

Agree.

Damn, I have nothing else to say. It's all pathetic and stupid. They should let the people be who the ever they want to be.

[LP_Fan101]

Agree.

Damn, I have nothing else to say. It's all pathetic and stupid. They should let the people be who the ever they want to be.

Exactly. They can't stop induvidualism.

[killie32]

As long as it doesn't happen here then I'm not too bothered, I'm not planning on going to Russia.

[I_B_Long]

umm, call me an idiot, but uummm, whats a chav?

[killie32]

Definition of Chav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav)

[I_B_Long]

Definition of Chav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav)

LOL, that didnt really narrow it down much. its a UK thing, huh? i think i get the point, kind of. thanks

[RachaelLP]

Thank you for making this Jen.

but the reason they are fighting in the first place is because they are a chav or a goth. the goth wouldn't have attacked the chav if he appeared to be a normal looking kid that didn't belong to any (stupid) group.

That's too true. The media create the rift by reporting stories like this in this kind of way. Fights get started for the mere reason the person is different to their ideal. Young people read the stories in the papers of fights between chavs and goths, and justifies their actions if they go and 'sort out' a chav or a goth. Then the story is reported on and the circle just continues. These stereotypes are stupidly easy to give to people, and as is shown in these articles have terrible effects.


LOL, that didnt really narrow it down much. its a UK thing, huh? i think i get the point, kind of. thanks

Well, British teenager and young people are supposedly the worst in Europe. Famed for drinking, drugs, underage sex and violence. And the media lump all this lot on the 'chav'. So yeah, it's a UK thing unfortunately. I don't know if you've heard of the 'hoody' in the UK, that's really the same type of thing.

Something else that could be thought about is that maybe the media is not only attaching stereotypes to crime, but is making these crimes worse. In Kerrang i read the other day, one of the main articles happened to have the people in it displaying knives which i'd guess were more that 12inches long. Why though? I didn't believe it had any relevance to the interview at all, just props for the cameras. Of course we can't blame the the whole knife crime and violence issue on the media, though they do have a lot to own up to. They glamourise it in photo shoots like the one i mentioned, and sensationalise everything.

[Blood_Pearl]

chavs are annoying and duller than ditchwater but noone deserves to be hurt like that, just verbally abused a little.

prison time!

[illustrator_jen]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-566481/Why-child-safe-sinister-cult-emo.html

Hilarious. Not the story itself, that is sad, but the writing up of it.

I was in the middle of quoting loads of stuff from that article, but I gave up. I'll just say this. That has to be the single most poorly researched piece of journalism I've ever read. The very fact that they classed Blink 182 as emo is evidence enough.

It actually smacks to me of another example of lazy parenting, blaming anything except what is more often than not the cause of the problem-the family unit itself. If parents took just a little more time to actually listen to their kids and find out what makes them tick, then the teen suicide rate might drop. Hannah did not kill herself just because she listened to My Chemical Romance.

It's the same as saying "I can't control my kids at home, so I'll let them hang around in the street and hurl abuse at passers by etc" (i.e "chavs") -thereby passing the responsibility on to someone else.

I hope this wittering makes some sense. I know it's not late, but I'm tired.

Chris- I'm not giving up yet...

Rachael- you're welcome.

[illustrator_jen]

Something else that could be thought about is that maybe the media is not only attaching stereotypes to crime, but is making these crimes worse. In Kerrang i read the other day, one of the main articles happened to have the people in it displaying knives which i'd guess were more that 12inches long. Why though? I didn't believe it had any relevance to the interview at all, just props for the cameras. Of course we can't blame the the whole knife crime and violence issue on the media, though they do have a lot to own up to. They glamourise it in photo shoots like the one i mentioned, and sensationalise everything.

I finally sat down and read this article last night. I can't see any link to knives in the actual article, so why include them in the photoshoot? Odd.

[RachaelLP]

Just a thought really, as music does get a lot of the responsiblilty for trouble in soceity.
There's alot of violence in London, and around that area. And there's the 'grime' scene associated with it. Same probably could be said for areas in New York (just as an example), with alot of hip-hop coming from there, correct me if i'm wrong.
Could it be said that these kind of areas with trouble and issues inspire music?

Is it a chicken and the egg situation, what came first? Violence or music? I'm betting the violence and problems, but the media like to portray otherwise, that a bit of swearing and rap drives people to crime.

[Titan50]

Ah yes, the classic emo dispute the papers like to bring up. The main topic (the goth killing the chav), that's the fault on the murderer, not all goths in general, with the papers WILL (repeat: WILL) bring up and say "OH NOES, ALL GOTHS ARE BAD, BAN ALL GOTHS!". And the Hannah Bond case, I don't want to type a whole essay, but reading the Mail's (*spit*) article (which I did ages ago, actually felt PISSED. Proper ANGRY) makes me want to go down there and kill them all with an uzi. You don't need me to telly ou all the faults in that article. Just read it.
"The Black Parade is a place where all emos thinkt hey go when they die"
PSHAW!!!!!!!!! Where the FUCK did they come up with that?! I have actually NEVER heard that, in all the stereotypings of emos I've heard. "All"? Not sure it's just a couple of disillusioned kids?


[QUOTE=RachaelLP;414691]In Kerrang i read the other day, one of the main articles happened to have the people in it displaying knives which i'd guess were more that 12inches long. QUOTE]
New Found Glory? That was ages ago...

[killie32]

Thai youth imitates Grand Theft Auto in cab murder (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080804/tot-uk-video-murder-b86c26b.html)

18 year old stabs a taxi driver after playing GTA IV because...
"He said he wanted to find out if it was as easy in real life to rob a taxi as it was in the game," chief investigator Veeravit Pipattanasak told Reuters.

[RachaelLP]

New Found Glory? That was ages ago...


No, not that one. It was Scars On Broadway or something. So the random photos with knives has occured on multiple occasions...

Thai youth imitates Grand Theft Auto in cab murder (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080804/tot-uk-video-murder-b86c26b.html)

18 year old stabs a taxi driver after playing GTA IV because...

This is stupid. The reason he stabbed the taxi driver is because he's, well there's alot of things he could be classed as, not because of some video game. He was 'obsessed' by the game, and probably found it an easy reason to blame for his actions. He'd probably have seen these kind of violent images on TV or in films regardless of whether he was playing the game.

[illustrator_jen]

BUMP.

The three main activities carried out by people in Great Britain in 2005 were sleeping, working, and watching TV and videos/DVDs or listening to music. These activities take up more than half the day (13 hours and 38 minutes out of the 24 hours available). About a third of the day was spent sleeping. Men were more likely to watch TV or listen to the radio and to take part in other activities (sport, entertainment, hobbies and using the computer). Women are more likely than men to spend time reading or spend time with other people.


Source of the quote here (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=7)

After having some problems recently regarding getting a decent signal from my digital television (which is more to do with where I live than anything else), I started to wonder whether I really needed television in my life. As we've been talking about computer games allegedly affecting people's behaviour, I think the same to some extent can be said for tv, not to mention people holding it responsible for the increasing levels of obesity throughout Western society; and especially a massive craze for people just wanting to be "famous" for practically nothing.

Is TV killing individualism and creativity?

[I_B_Long]

BUMP.



Source of the quote here (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=7)

After having some problems recently regarding getting a decent signal from my digital television (which is more to do with where I live than anything else), I started to wonder whether I really needed television in my life. As we've been talking about computer games allegedly affecting people's behaviour, I think the same to some extent can be said for tv, not to mention people holding it responsible for the increasing levels of obesity throughout Western society; and especially a massive craze for people just wanting to be "famous" for practically nothing.

Is TV killing individualism and creativity?

uummm, yes.
any other questions? ;)

[MissNatalie1984]

Thai youth imitates Grand Theft Auto in cab murder (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080804/tot-uk-video-murder-b86c26b.html)

18 year old stabs a taxi driver after playing GTA IV because...


i don't know why, but that reminded me of something that just recently happened in canada.


http://kdka.com/topstories/greyhound.bus.murder.2.785509.html

what's wrong with humanity these days? i think the most frightening thing about this article is that, for me, i'm travelling at the moment and i use the greyhound buses - that victim could've been anyone, that victim could've been me.

there's no metal detectors or anything at the greyhound stations... sometimes, not always, they have security guards but that's it. i just think better security measures should've been taken so instances such as this can be prevented.

[Lynford]

BUMP.



Source of the quote here (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=7)

After having some problems recently regarding getting a decent signal from my digital television (which is more to do with where I live than anything else), I started to wonder whether I really needed television in my life. As we've been talking about computer games allegedly affecting people's behaviour, I think the same to some extent can be said for tv, not to mention people holding it responsible for the increasing levels of obesity throughout Western society; and especially a massive craze for people just wanting to be "famous" for practically nothing.

Is TV killing individualism and creativity?

Can we put the Internet in the same boat as TV? It seems to be killing real life interaction also (yeah I know: pot calling kettle...I'm guilty!) It's so easy to sit on here/msn and chat to a virtual stranger who thinks you're witty & intelligent coz you have time to think up your responses! How many of us chat to our 'virtual' buddies more than we talk to people face to face? *puts her hand up*

About TV: I've actually just had cable installed in my bedroom - yet probably only watch about 4 hours of TV a week!? Yet my parents have the TV on constantly & don't even turn it off when we have visitors...which drives me insane!!! I honestly think I could go without TV no problem, but the internet...

[I_B_Long]

Can we put the Internet in the same boat as TV? It seems to be killing real life interaction also (yeah I know: pot calling kettle...I'm guilty!) It's so easy to sit on here/msn and chat to a virtual stranger who thinks you're witty & intelligent coz you have time to think up your responses! How many of us chat to our 'virtual' buddies more than we talk to people face to face? *puts her hand up*

About TV: I've actually just had cable installed in my bedroom - yet probably only watch about 4 hours of TV a week!? Yet my parents have the TV on constantly & don't even turn it off when we have visitors...which drives me insane!!! I honestly think I could go without TV no problem, but the internet...

i basically second everything you just said. i never turn on my tv at all, but my kid does sometimes (he's 1 and he likes to push buttons...lol)
i would go crazy without my internet, cant live wthout my computer, all my friends live in it. and being an armywife, most of my friends live ALL OVER THE WORLD. literally. so im glad i have this great tool to keep in touch with them.
and im witty in real life too. and much funnier becuase i dont have to worry about people misunderstanding my humor.and i dont blame the internet for my figure (im NOT overweight, but im not happy either) i blame reeses cups, BK milkshakes and a pregnancy with a baby that was 2 weeks past due and weighed almost 10 lbs.:D

[illustrator_jen]

Can we put the Internet in the same boat as TV? It seems to be killing real life interaction also (yeah I know: pot calling kettle...I'm guilty!) It's so easy to sit on here/msn and chat to a virtual stranger who thinks you're witty & intelligent coz you have time to think up your responses! How many of us chat to our 'virtual' buddies more than we talk to people face to face? *puts her hand up*

About TV: I've actually just had cable installed in my bedroom - yet probably only watch about 4 hours of TV a week!? Yet my parents have the TV on constantly & don't even turn it off when we have visitors...which drives me insane!!! I honestly think I could go without TV no problem, but the internet...

As far as goes the internet, I personally try and "talk" just like I would if I was speaking to someone face to face. But I guess for as many people that are doing that, there are tons more that are faking it; and of course it's really easy to put up a facade, we all know that. I do talk to people online more, but of the 5 main people I talk to on MSN, four of them I've met, and one of them I've known since uni (about 6 years). I think the thing to do, is to know where to draw the line between the virtual and the real world (same goes for video games).

I think we live in an age now where we have integrated the internet into our lives. I use it a lot for promoting my artwork, and wouldn't have had 90% of my commissions without the help of the internet. More importantly, I've met two of my closest friends through the internet, and we now all meet up regularly in "real life" :D The trick I think is knowing where the limit is. There's no online substitute for fresh air and ridiculous times with crazy mates.

[Lynford]

True true! It is very convenient but yes i also try to be as i am in 'real' life (hence the many spelling mistakes in my msn...from typing as i think it!)

I just worry about all the 'kids' growing up in a world where their parents are too worried to let them outside coz of all the weirdos out there! So they sit in & play on msn or Xbox and they are gonna grow up with only 'online' friends :( I didn't even touch a pc til i was about 15 lol I was too busy outside playing tag/hide & seek with me mates!

[illustrator_jen]

I grew up in the countryside, used to mess about in the fields round the back my house til dusk when I was little. Everyone's super paranoid these days (in some cases justified), also I do think parents are getting lazier (anything to keep kids quiet), hence the increasing numbers of XBox generation kids.